Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:47 am

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/26/david-cameron-drops-plans-ease-foxhunting-restrictions

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/26/david-cameron-drops-plans-ease-foxhunting-restrictions wrote:David Cameron has dropped plans to ease the foxhunting ban by allowing packs of dogs to flush out the animals before they are shot, after a coalition split over the issue.

The decision will disappoint upland farmers who argue they need to hunt with more than two dogs following an increase in attacks on lambs. However, it will mean the prime minister avoids a tricky Commons vote that would have opened up old fractures within the Conservatives about hunting, as well as infuriating animal rights activists.

Cameron gave up the plans after initially saying he had some sympathy with the argument for changing the law and subsequently promising a Commons vote.

"A group of Welsh and other MPs have looked at a particular problem of pest control in upland areas of Wales and other parts of the country. They are making a proposal. In the end, the House of Commons will be able to decide," he said in early March. The government had been expected to bring forward a form of secondary legislation called a statutory instrument to make the change.

But pressed on the rumours at prime minister's question time on Wednesday, Cameron said: "As you know, as I've said before at this dispatch box, proposals were made on a cross-party basis to [Owen Paterson, the environment secretary] about an amendment to the Hunting Act that would help in particular upland farmers deal with the problem of fox predation of their lands.

"That letter has been received and is being considered but I regret to say I don't think there'll be government agreement to go forward."

Many backbenchers, especially those with rural constituencies under threat from Ukip, are likely to be frustrated by the decision.

But others appeared relieved that the contentious issue would not be revived a year before the general election. Tracey Crouch, MP for Chatham and Aylesford, tweeted: "PM in effect just ruled out relaxation of foxhunting legislation. Good."

The coalition agreement promised a free vote on repealing the hunting ban but this was unofficially shelved in 2011 over signs that there were insufficient MPs to overturn the ban.

On Wednesday, the Times reported that Dan Rogerson, an environment minister, wrote to a constituent dismissing the idea that the coalition had agreed to a vote.

"I would like to reassure you that the Hunting Act is not under threat by the coalition government," he wrote. "The Conservative party may wish to amend the Hunting Act, but Liberal Democrats have not agreed to make any amendments or changes to the Hunting Act. No votes or pieces of secondary legislation have been agreed by the government."

The decision to drop the proposal was welcomed by the League Against Cruel Sports, which estimates at least 26 Tories opposed changing the hunting act.

Its chief executive, Joe Duckworth, said: "I am delighted that we have flushed out this back door attack on the hunting act. What they planned would have driven a coach and horses through the act. I am delighted we have thwarted this plot from a tiny but powerful hunting lobby."


avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by LyndaW on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:07 pm

This is such a controversial issue that I hesitate to comment, and I must admit to being very much "on the fence" even now.
avatar
LyndaW

Names of Dogs : Kuchar
Posts : 4025
Reputation : 96
Join date : 2014-01-14
Age : 68
Location : Hampshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:15 pm

Don't worry about it! happy We all have different views!
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by LyndaW on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:38 pm

happy 
avatar
LyndaW

Names of Dogs : Kuchar
Posts : 4025
Reputation : 96
Join date : 2014-01-14
Age : 68
Location : Hampshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Hayley on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:28 pm

by allowing packs of dogs to flush out the animals before they are shot


That doesn't happen, the dogs kill the fox. They just say they are shot to seem more humane, but the dogs have the fox killed in seconds. Which, i know sounds horrible, is better. If shot and the dogs are called off but the shooter misses..it can take days to die.

I'm by no means pro-hunting, i personally would never go hunting. I'm of the view "if you can't contain and secure your animals properly then its your fault if they get killed" (even though i know it's impossible to keep foxes out of sheep fields..but you can get a llama/alpaca/sheep guard dog, or keep the lambs in!) but if it HAS to be done then the fastest, most unknowing way im afraid to say is to be killed by the dogs.
avatar
Hayley

Posts : 1194
Reputation : 21
Join date : 2014-03-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Hayley on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:31 pm

The other part is the abuse horses go through, and the dogs. If there is a dog that won't "conform" its just shot. Horses are forced, usually quite young, to jump impossible jumps and are whipped very severely to be made to do it. It's very big in ireland, and many people looking a good bold horse will want one that has been hunted.
avatar
Hayley

Posts : 1194
Reputation : 21
Join date : 2014-03-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:05 am

I personally don't feel that fox hunting benefits anybody really, aside from granting pleasure to the people hunting. The excuse of using it to control fox populations just doesn't swing with me; it does nothing to control populations. With the amount of foxes there are, even killing five in a week isn't going to make a dent. Considering that, it seems quite plain to me that fox hunters are in it for the sport, not to help out farmers and livestock.

And yes, as you said, the dogs and horses also suffer for it. Along with any animal which gets in the way. Other dogs and cats have been killed when hounds go tearing through people's gardens.

I am completely against blood sports of any kind and I do class this as a blood sport. The hunt serves as the main entertainment, followed by the trophies in the form of the fox's more valuable body parts.
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Caryll on Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:48 am

Totally against fox hunting.

If the fox is a pest (vermin) hunting doesn't keep the numbers down as hunts only fun once or twice a month & don't even always catch a fox. They do, however, often catch people's cats & small dogs!

_________________
The best dog is the one you take home with you.

All that is gold does not glitter;
not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither;
deep roots are not reached by the frost - Tolkein
.
avatar
Caryll

Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 6933
Reputation : 167
Join date : 2014-01-08
Location : East Midlands

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by LyndaW on Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:32 pm

OK, here's why I'm ambivalent.

First off, I have to confess that I had a great deal of enjoyment in my teens (in the '60s) through riding my pony along with the hunt. This hunt was the Sandhurst College and Berkshire hunt, always over common ground (heath) where to be frank foxes were not a nuisance to farmers. There was it is true also existing at that time the Sandhurst Drag, but this laid a trail over huge artificial fences which my pony couldn't have managed, was far too fast for my pony and quite frankly didn't have the excitement of unpredictability. I never, ever, wanted to see a fox "torn to bits" and never did - that wasn't the point of the exercise for 99.99% of the "field".

However, in the '50s I lived in a remote village in North Essex amidst a farming community, and farmers would often ask the hunt to draw coverts where they knew foxes dwelt who were predating their chickens, ducks, lambs etc. They did this knowing that their fields might get trampled over and some fences broken, but they obviously thought it was worth it. I didn't have a pony then but hunt followers in cars would take my friend and I to the coverts to stand on the earths and prevent the foxes from returning to them. And I did see foxes, whilst the coverts were being drawn by the hounds, trying to return to their earths but finding me standing on top of them. And I have to say that the foxes weren't terrified by the hounds giving voice or me standing on their earth, but just wandered off casually at a walk.

This is how it was.

These days, I do still believe that foxes need to be controlled as they are more prolific than ever, especially in urban areas, and I wish I had an easy answer.

I do take Hayley's point about hounds and horses in Northern Ireland, which is arguably a very hard-hunting country. Foxhounds who can't do the job are going to be culled no doubt about it; they'd be no good as pet dogs. And maybe people shouldn't expect too much from a young horse in the hope of making a quick profit but bring it on steadily to increase its confidence.

Sorry to be so controversial and opening the can of worms further!

avatar
LyndaW

Names of Dogs : Kuchar
Posts : 4025
Reputation : 96
Join date : 2014-01-14
Age : 68
Location : Hampshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:38 pm

I appreciate your honesty! I think a well-rounded debate is far better than a one-sided debate, as it helps people to understand both sides of the argument. happy

I'm afraid I could never bring myself to support fox hunting, but your account of what it was like is interesting and a different take on the matter. happy
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by LyndaW on Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:00 pm

Thank you Eleanor for your openmindedness.

Dare I ask what your thoughts (or anyone else's who cares to join in) about how to deal with the fox problem? I don't want to start a row, I'm just interested as I can't see a way forward myself.
avatar
LyndaW

Names of Dogs : Kuchar
Posts : 4025
Reputation : 96
Join date : 2014-01-14
Age : 68
Location : Hampshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:12 pm

Honestly, I'm not sure! There are companies who deal with relocating and humane deterrence, but I think they focus more on foxes straying into gardens.

It is a problem, no doubt. When humans settle themselves in among animals, there will be territorial disputes. Although it won't solve the problem itself and it's easier said than done, my only idea would be in relation to safeguarding poultry as much as possible. Secure enclosures, for instance.

If foxes had to be culled, I would prefer shooting (as unpleasant as it is) to hunting, as this would remove a lot of the group sporting mentality.

Unfortunately, foxes are extremely territorial animals. The moment one fox is killed, another moves right in to take his place. I do sympathise with farmers, as foxes are a huge nuisance and a threat to their living.
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by LyndaW on Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:55 pm

It is a problem as you say Eleanor and I too wish there was an easy answer.

Ref foxes entering gardens (especially urban ones), no organisation seems to be interested. I could give you countless examples in my area alone where foxes have killed pet chickens, pheasants, rabbits, guinea pigs and, yes, cats. And foxes are very clever (and strong) and nothing short of Fort Knox can protect these animals or birds from a determined fox. Lambs and free-range poultry in country areas even more so.

Why foxes are proliferating in urban areas is obvious - easy pickings, and not helped by those misguided people who leave food out for them.

Leaving aside the "group sporting mentality" , shooting makes me uneasy. I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about firearms, but as far as I am aware, farmers are only allowed (after the proper checks) to carry shotguns. Shotguns are relatively effective against birds and small mammals such as rabbits, but will only pepper a larger animal such as a fox with shot unless at very close range where a concentrated blast can be delivered to a vital area. A skilled marksman with a rifle would be needed to kill a fox cleanly otherwise. I stand to be corrected on this point.





avatar
LyndaW

Names of Dogs : Kuchar
Posts : 4025
Reputation : 96
Join date : 2014-01-14
Age : 68
Location : Hampshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:04 pm

Hmm, good point. I have to admit that I know very little about shooting. Honestly, then, I haven't got a clue!

If anybody knows anything about humane fox deterrence, please do share! I'd be very interested to know!
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Caryll on Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:59 pm

I'm honestly not sure about deterrents or humane ways of culling, it's certainly not my area of expertise (if, indeed, I actually have one!). However, I do question the need to cull country foxes. They don't do nearly as much damage as farmers tell you they do - yes, they'll go on a killing spree if they get into the chicken coop, but then you should make sure the coop is fox-proof & all the chickens are tucked up in bed at night!

Foxes don't take new born lambs unless they are sickly, in which case, it's nature's way of dealing with them.

They'll take pheasants, but that isn't a problem for nature unless the pheasants have been bred in their hundreds for a shoot. As I don't like blood sports, including the shooting of game birds 'for fun', I really don't care if the shooting party are missing a few birds here & there.

My friend went on a few hunts when she was in her early teens, but it was for the thrill of the ride. For months they either didn't see a fox or if they did, they didn't actually catch one. Then one day they did. She was horrified and never rode with a hunt again. The animal was torn to pieces before the hunt master (or whatever he's called) could call them off and the brush was hacked off. Blood was then smeared over any hunt members who had never been 'in on the kill' before. What decent human being could ever actually enjoy that?

_________________
The best dog is the one you take home with you.

All that is gold does not glitter;
not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither;
deep roots are not reached by the frost - Tolkein
.
avatar
Caryll

Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 6933
Reputation : 167
Join date : 2014-01-08
Location : East Midlands

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:01 am

The thought of it does make me shudder. Regardless of the reasons why it's done, I couldn't take part in one.
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Caryll on Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:04 am

I'm not saying that I agree with hunt saboteurs - they can cause as much damage as the hunt!

But hunting with more than 2 dogs was made illegal & it should stay that way. happy 

_________________
The best dog is the one you take home with you.

All that is gold does not glitter;
not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither;
deep roots are not reached by the frost - Tolkein
.
avatar
Caryll

Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 6933
Reputation : 167
Join date : 2014-01-08
Location : East Midlands

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:24 am

Agreed. Activists do sometimes act without thinking. What they need to remember is that the fox isn't the only animal involved. In trying to prevent harm from coming to the fox, harm is often inflicted on the hounds and horses.
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Caryll on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:41 am

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against hunting as a means of getting food as long as it's a clean, humane killing. But not as a blood sport.

_________________
The best dog is the one you take home with you.

All that is gold does not glitter;
not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither;
deep roots are not reached by the frost - Tolkein
.
avatar
Caryll

Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 6933
Reputation : 167
Join date : 2014-01-08
Location : East Midlands

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Eleanor on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:45 am

I'm open to that, for the reasons you said. happy
avatar
Eleanor

Time Online : 5m 1s
Names of Dogs : Dempsey
Posts : 10088
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2014-01-08
Age : 23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Cameron drops plans to change foxhunting laws

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum