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Positive/Negative - what does it mean?

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LyndaW
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Positive/Negative - what does it mean? Empty Positive/Negative - what does it mean?

Post by Caryll Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:49 pm

A very simple explanation...

Positive Punishment (P+): Punching the dog when you tell it to sit and it doesn't.

Positive Reinforcement (R+): Giving dog a cookie when you tell it to sit and it sits.

Negative Reinforcement (P-): Pinching the dog's ear, telling it to sit, then stop pinching the ear once it does sit.

Negative Punishment (R-): Tell the dog to sit and it doesn't sit so you DON'T give it a cookie, even though you were holding it out to him.
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Post by LyndaW Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:09 pm

Positive Punishment - jerking a dog's lead hard with reinforcement yells when he doesn't sit immediately at the road edge (I saw this just the other day).
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Post by Caryll Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:07 am

Yes, another good example.

The thing to remember is

Positive = give something to your dog; ie a punch/jerk or a treat

Negative. = take something away; ie a bad stimulus or a treat/toy.

Most of us use positive reinforcement & negative punishment (take away a toy, for example, when they misbehave with it!).

Hopefully none of us here use positive punishment or negative reinforcement.
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Post by Eleanor Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:21 am

Positive punishment can have its place, though. I've definitely used it before - 'No.'

There are ways to train with minimal positive punishment, but that's usually reserved for specially trained dogs, such as Guide Dogs and the like. Even then, they will probably hear the occasional 'No' during their training.
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Post by Caryll Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:11 am

That's true - you tend to forget the little warnings we all give....no, don't you dare etc; all positive punishment.
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Post by Shisa Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:03 am

Caryll wrote:A very simple explanation...

Positive Punishment (P+): Punching the dog when you tell it to sit and it doesn't.

Are you sure that's right?
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Post by Caryll Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:10 am

I think so.....

Positive just means giving or adding.
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Post by Eleanor Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:36 am

Positive and negative don't refer to 'positive and negative states of mind', but rather 'addition and subtraction.' happy

If you add something to the training, it's positive - whether it's reinforcement or punishment. Example: 'No' - adding a word to the training.

If you take something away, it's negative. Example: taking a toy away in response to bad behaviour.

There are also cases when a particular training aid or bridge can use both positive and negative. A check chain, for instance. The tightening of the check chain would be positive punishment, adding the sudden pressure/noise, whereas the loosening of the chain would be negative reinforcement, taking away the unwanted pressure when the desired behaviour has been performed.

Hope that's clear! laughing
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Post by Caryll Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:20 pm

thumbs up 
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Post by Hayley Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:03 am

This took a while to get my brain around.

There is no such thing as positive punishment, which is the point i think! lol
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Post by Caryll Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:57 am

There is, but positive in this case doesn't mean good. A slap or a punch is positive punishment. Positive & negative in these cases just mean give & take away.
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Post by tracyp Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:52 am

I get the idea behind this. I use  it myself but I must say, I do have an issue with the term....punching the dog.

Why would you punch a dog when its learning to sit? Wouldnt you just say... no... again & slide your hand down its back firmly weighted as you lift their head to achieve the sit. Then, good puppy.

I don't like the term punched. It invokes cruelty.
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Post by Caryll Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:58 am

'Punched' was just a word I used to better explain - it could be anything, really; push, flick, pinch, shove.

I totally agree that punching a dog when it doesn't sit is overkill! But it was just a way of putting the point across.
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Post by tracyp Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:56 am

Ok. I understand. I thought you had copied the text from somewhere.
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Post by Caryll Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:52 am

I did, but that was the context in which it was said originally. I suppose it was an exaggeration to prove a point! wink 
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Post by tracyp Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:22 pm

I get the principles.  I think the term positive / negative should be changed. Though I dont know the context of the article.

Perhaps training by addition & subtraction? thinking

Can you post the whole article?
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Post by Caryll Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:55 pm

It was just someone's way of explaining positive/negative reinforcement/punishment. People get confused by what's meant by positive & negative.
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Post by tracyp Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:32 am

Fair enough. I get the principles. Though I do think it could be worded better. But I agree with the underlying theory.
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Post by Caryll Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:48 pm

This is maybe a better way of explaining it, although a little more complicated...

• Positive Punishment:
In operant conditioning, the addition of an aversive stimulus, or something an animal seeks to avoid, that is found within the animals environment, following a behavior, with the intention of decreasing the frequency of that behavior. e.g. dog eliminates on carpet, dog get smacked. Owner pinning dog in order to “take control.”

• Positive Reinforcement:
In operant conditioning, an event or stimulus provided following a specific behavior with the intention of increasing the frequency of that behavior. A positive reinforcer is something the animal desires or finds pleasant. e.g. dog sits, get treat for sitting, dog continues to sit because it predict treats.

• Negative punishment:
In operant conditioning, the removal of something an animal wants.  e.g. Dog jumps on person to say ‘hello’ – person turns their back and ignores dog.

• Negative reinforcement:
In operant conditioning, the removal of something an animal finds unpleasant, as an immediate result of the desired behavior performed. e.g. Pull up on choke collar until dog sits butt on ground, choke collar released. Pinning dog on back until dog relaxes and “submits.” In both examples it’s the release of the choke chain, or allowing the dog to get up after pinning.
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