Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
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LyndaW
Caryll
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Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
A very simple explanation...
Positive Punishment (P+): Punching the dog when you tell it to sit and it doesn't.
Positive Reinforcement (R+): Giving dog a cookie when you tell it to sit and it sits.
Negative Reinforcement (P-): Pinching the dog's ear, telling it to sit, then stop pinching the ear once it does sit.
Negative Punishment (R-): Tell the dog to sit and it doesn't sit so you DON'T give it a cookie, even though you were holding it out to him.
Positive Punishment (P+): Punching the dog when you tell it to sit and it doesn't.
Positive Reinforcement (R+): Giving dog a cookie when you tell it to sit and it sits.
Negative Reinforcement (P-): Pinching the dog's ear, telling it to sit, then stop pinching the ear once it does sit.
Negative Punishment (R-): Tell the dog to sit and it doesn't sit so you DON'T give it a cookie, even though you were holding it out to him.
Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Positive Punishment - jerking a dog's lead hard with reinforcement yells when he doesn't sit immediately at the road edge (I saw this just the other day).
LyndaW- Names of Dogs : Kuchar
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Yes, another good example.
The thing to remember is
Positive = give something to your dog; ie a punch/jerk or a treat
Negative. = take something away; ie a bad stimulus or a treat/toy.
Most of us use positive reinforcement & negative punishment (take away a toy, for example, when they misbehave with it!).
Hopefully none of us here use positive punishment or negative reinforcement.
The thing to remember is
Positive = give something to your dog; ie a punch/jerk or a treat
Negative. = take something away; ie a bad stimulus or a treat/toy.
Most of us use positive reinforcement & negative punishment (take away a toy, for example, when they misbehave with it!).
Hopefully none of us here use positive punishment or negative reinforcement.
Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Positive punishment can have its place, though. I've definitely used it before - 'No.'
There are ways to train with minimal positive punishment, but that's usually reserved for specially trained dogs, such as Guide Dogs and the like. Even then, they will probably hear the occasional 'No' during their training.
There are ways to train with minimal positive punishment, but that's usually reserved for specially trained dogs, such as Guide Dogs and the like. Even then, they will probably hear the occasional 'No' during their training.
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
That's true - you tend to forget the little warnings we all give....no, don't you dare etc; all positive punishment.
Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Caryll wrote:A very simple explanation...
Positive Punishment (P+): Punching the dog when you tell it to sit and it doesn't.
Are you sure that's right?
Shisa- Names of Dogs : Xan, Daisy, Rusty, Missy, Sheba, Spike, Pugsley, Axel, Coco, Lequita, Bruno, Gypsy
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
I think so.....
Positive just means giving or adding.
Positive just means giving or adding.
Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Positive and negative don't refer to 'positive and negative states of mind', but rather 'addition and subtraction.'
If you add something to the training, it's positive - whether it's reinforcement or punishment. Example: 'No' - adding a word to the training.
If you take something away, it's negative. Example: taking a toy away in response to bad behaviour.
There are also cases when a particular training aid or bridge can use both positive and negative. A check chain, for instance. The tightening of the check chain would be positive punishment, adding the sudden pressure/noise, whereas the loosening of the chain would be negative reinforcement, taking away the unwanted pressure when the desired behaviour has been performed.
Hope that's clear!
If you add something to the training, it's positive - whether it's reinforcement or punishment. Example: 'No' - adding a word to the training.
If you take something away, it's negative. Example: taking a toy away in response to bad behaviour.
There are also cases when a particular training aid or bridge can use both positive and negative. A check chain, for instance. The tightening of the check chain would be positive punishment, adding the sudden pressure/noise, whereas the loosening of the chain would be negative reinforcement, taking away the unwanted pressure when the desired behaviour has been performed.
Hope that's clear!
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Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
This took a while to get my brain around.
There is no such thing as positive punishment, which is the point i think! lol
There is no such thing as positive punishment, which is the point i think! lol
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
There is, but positive in this case doesn't mean good. A slap or a punch is positive punishment. Positive & negative in these cases just mean give & take away.
Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
I get the idea behind this. I use it myself but I must say, I do have an issue with the term....punching the dog.
Why would you punch a dog when its learning to sit? Wouldnt you just say... no... again & slide your hand down its back firmly weighted as you lift their head to achieve the sit. Then, good puppy.
I don't like the term punched. It invokes cruelty.
Why would you punch a dog when its learning to sit? Wouldnt you just say... no... again & slide your hand down its back firmly weighted as you lift their head to achieve the sit. Then, good puppy.
I don't like the term punched. It invokes cruelty.
tracyp- Names of Dogs : Jessie & Tyson
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
'Punched' was just a word I used to better explain - it could be anything, really; push, flick, pinch, shove.
I totally agree that punching a dog when it doesn't sit is overkill! But it was just a way of putting the point across.
I totally agree that punching a dog when it doesn't sit is overkill! But it was just a way of putting the point across.
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Ok. I understand. I thought you had copied the text from somewhere.
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
I did, but that was the context in which it was said originally. I suppose it was an exaggeration to prove a point!
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
I get the principles. I think the term positive / negative should be changed. Though I dont know the context of the article.
Perhaps training by addition & subtraction?
Can you post the whole article?
Perhaps training by addition & subtraction?
Can you post the whole article?
tracyp- Names of Dogs : Jessie & Tyson
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
It was just someone's way of explaining positive/negative reinforcement/punishment. People get confused by what's meant by positive & negative.
Caryll- Names of Dogs : Dempsey
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
Fair enough. I get the principles. Though I do think it could be worded better. But I agree with the underlying theory.
tracyp- Names of Dogs : Jessie & Tyson
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Re: Positive/Negative - what does it mean?
This is maybe a better way of explaining it, although a little more complicated...
• Positive Punishment:
In operant conditioning, the addition of an aversive stimulus, or something an animal seeks to avoid, that is found within the animals environment, following a behavior, with the intention of decreasing the frequency of that behavior. e.g. dog eliminates on carpet, dog get smacked. Owner pinning dog in order to “take control.”
• Positive Reinforcement:
In operant conditioning, an event or stimulus provided following a specific behavior with the intention of increasing the frequency of that behavior. A positive reinforcer is something the animal desires or finds pleasant. e.g. dog sits, get treat for sitting, dog continues to sit because it predict treats.
• Negative punishment:
In operant conditioning, the removal of something an animal wants. e.g. Dog jumps on person to say ‘hello’ – person turns their back and ignores dog.
• Negative reinforcement:
In operant conditioning, the removal of something an animal finds unpleasant, as an immediate result of the desired behavior performed. e.g. Pull up on choke collar until dog sits butt on ground, choke collar released. Pinning dog on back until dog relaxes and “submits.” In both examples it’s the release of the choke chain, or allowing the dog to get up after pinning.
• Positive Punishment:
In operant conditioning, the addition of an aversive stimulus, or something an animal seeks to avoid, that is found within the animals environment, following a behavior, with the intention of decreasing the frequency of that behavior. e.g. dog eliminates on carpet, dog get smacked. Owner pinning dog in order to “take control.”
• Positive Reinforcement:
In operant conditioning, an event or stimulus provided following a specific behavior with the intention of increasing the frequency of that behavior. A positive reinforcer is something the animal desires or finds pleasant. e.g. dog sits, get treat for sitting, dog continues to sit because it predict treats.
• Negative punishment:
In operant conditioning, the removal of something an animal wants. e.g. Dog jumps on person to say ‘hello’ – person turns their back and ignores dog.
• Negative reinforcement:
In operant conditioning, the removal of something an animal finds unpleasant, as an immediate result of the desired behavior performed. e.g. Pull up on choke collar until dog sits butt on ground, choke collar released. Pinning dog on back until dog relaxes and “submits.” In both examples it’s the release of the choke chain, or allowing the dog to get up after pinning.
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