Dog attack

First topic message reminder :

I feel sorry for this man.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/man-hospital-after-two-american-7809846

You are wrong Eleanor.....
I highly train all my dogs.

Our rotties headbutted a fence down to chase a teen who through rocks at them. They cornered him but as they were taught "gentle" they never layed a tooth on him. Just cornered him till the police came.

Jess didn't attack when I told her to "leave it" while 3 Malamutes attacked us both!

Want me to go on?

Tyson was pushed to his limit by a healer. "Come! Sit!"

Training does make the dog!

That's your dogs, though. Could you say that it would work for every single dog in the world? I don't believe that decades of instinct can be swallowed by training. I think this is a subject we'll have to agree to disagree on.

No I could not. But I can say that if you can't control your dog that you shouldnt have it.... be it a maltese or a doberman!

I think we'll definitely need to agree to disagree then Oh well!

Yes. We will agree to disagree.

But I will stand by my statement......Don't get a dog you can't train, control or be the leader of in all things..... you shouldn't have it!

Am afraid I'm with Eleanor on this one

Eleanor wrote:Sorry, I have to disagree with that.

Dogs are dogs, no matter how much you train them. Every dog has its limit and the right (or wrong) level of fear can make all training fly out of the window. Training can't beat pure, unadulterated fear. Most dogs go through their lives with no instances of biting, but sometimes there are cases when something as simple to us as fireworks can turn a dog into a polar opposite of its usual self.

Would Dempsey attack you? If so?.....

I do not believe this from everything I know, have experienced or read.

Eleanor wrote:That's your dogs, though.

Yes it is. I train them! ....I take time with mine to ensure their friendliness to all!  Isn't that the point of socializing & training dogs?

Jess does scent tracking but being kind to others is far more important to me.

If Dempsey was in an extreme amount of pain (broken leg, for instance) and I tried to manipulate it, I daresay he would nip at the very least. There is only so much socialisation you can do.

Again, agreeing to disagree!

Chance is now trained and socialised, would I trust him fully to not attack us? No not in the slightest. He has a list of things he doesn't like that's as long as your arm from things as stupid as scratching your foot, makes him see red, and he wouldn't need pushing far to really attack someone

Eleanor wrote:If Dempsey was in an extreme amount of pain (broken leg, for instance) and I tried to manipulate it, I daresay he would nip at the very least. There is only so much socialisation you can do.

Again, agreeing to disagree!

Oh you are talking about two very different things.

ella wrote:Chance is now trained and socialised, would I trust him fully to not attack us? No not in the slightest. He has a list of things he doesn't like that's as long as your arm from things as stupid as scratching your foot, makes him see red, and he wouldn't need pushing far to really attack someone

Boo was similar..... I understand, but they can be trained! I think there is more info we are yet to receive.

Chance is trained he's also damaged goods and will never be a normal pet dog, no matter how much training he gets, it's all about managing him and his behaviour

Not all dogs can be trained to live 'in full harmony' with every other living creature.

But I don't think this has anything to do with the attack. From what I understand the dogs were spooked by fireworks & went crazy? Fear affects different animals in different ways, and if there is more than one animal experiencing that fear, then the results may be blown sky high. Reason/training/sense fly out of the window & blind panic clicks a survival instinct into play.

In that sort of instance the dogs probably don't even know what they are doing. They are not intending to deliberately hurt someone/something but act out of pure survival instinct.

The same thing could happen to the calmest, sweetest dog if something scares them enough.

Fear is one of the most primal instincts. In its simplest form, which is probably too simplistic, it can be put down to Fight or Flight. If a dog cannot flee (i.e., get away from the fireworks due to the leash), it will fight. When sheer panic sets in, the Fight response can kick into overdrive and is prolonged as the adrenaline builds. Fear and panic are directly correlated to survival, so they will overpower any other thought if the threat is frightening enough.

Caryll wrote:Not all dogs can be trained to live 'in full harmony' with every other living creature.

But I don't think this has anything to do with the attack. From what I understand the dogs were spooked by fireworks & went crazy? Fear affects different animals in different ways, and if there is more than one animal experiencing that fear, then the results may be blown sky high. Reason/training/sense fly out of the window & blind panic clicks a survival instinct into play.

In that sort of instance the dogs probably don't even know what they are doing. They are not intending to deliberately hurt someone/something but act out of pure survival instinct.

The same thing could happen to the calmest, sweetest dog if something scares them enough.

I reiterate,  there is more to this story than we all know about!

Calm, trained, socialized, sweet dogs do not attack their owner due to fireworks. Bolt? Possible..yes a natural response!  Attack their master.... no! I do not & will not agree unless the owner is an incompetent trainer.

As for not living in harmony.....if I had a dollar (pound) for everytime I was told I couldnt have a dobe or staff living with chooks, I'd have my house paid off!

Anything can be done if you know how to go about it, invest time, love, & patience.

E.G. Jess could not get away from 3 loose malamutes attacking us, she was on a short lead! (40cm?) yet she didnt attack, she did defend herself & i (snapping) while we were both being bitten but, she stood by my side as she was told to "leave it" as they all bit us both! Its called training!!!

But Tracey not every dog is sweet natured - Chance isn't and yes he's redirected on to us in the past and bitten both me and my OH, in my case i thought he'd broke my arm, I've spent every day training him, and yes he's a different dog, but NO i still don't trust him not to attack given the right situation, but we know what sets him off and what he doesn't like.

Like i said earlier he doesn't like people scratching their OWN feet, it's the sounds we think, but he will and has bitten through it, albeit a controlled bite, but still put teeth to skin over it, and so that's something else that needs dealing with.

Tracy, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I have no doubt that there's more to the original story than we know at present. But I still say that not every dog can live in perfect harmony with every other creature.

In over 40 years of owning & training dogs I've seen many different temperaments. Maybe you've been lucky, your dogs & cays etc have all had the initial temperament to allow good harmony, but there ARE dogs that, instinctively, will not get on with others.

Dogs are not inheritantly bad. They are made so by bad experiences & owners. You forget I have also had rescues that attacked people. They WERE retrained.

There is certainly more to the story that we may never find out.

Not every dog is re trainable to a set standard some will just never be a perfect pet dog AND breed has a lot to do with it. What you've got to consider is we are talking about ambulls here, they are an odd breed, which don't get a long with most things. Honestly they would be happy left on their own to their own devices, they are not a people dog apart from an unbreakable loyalty to their owner and no one else, they are very aloof which is why A LOT of them are HA to some degree hence why I say an attack of this magnitude doesn't surpirse me given the breed. I do however think the dogs most likely started fighting with each other and he has intervened. Again they are an all of nothing breed so when they attack someone they bloody well mean it! Yes they can live happily as a pet dog BUT they are not a nice fluffy little thing who will tolerate rough handling/training and are not for the faint hearted

But yes there will always be more to this story then we will find out

ella wrote:
they are not a people dog apart from an unbreakable loyalty to their owner and no one else,

Thank you Ella, That's exactly my point! He was their owner. Something else bar "fireworks" happened.

Yes they can live happily as a pet dog BUT they are not a nice fluffy little thing who will tolerate rough handling/training and are not for the faint hearted

Again, yes! If you cant handle the breed, dont get the dog! A responsible person wouldnt get a dog they cannot manage, train or control. I train my dogs far harsher than I would a little "foofy" dog. As I cant pick mine up I MUST have full control of them by voice & signal & they believe I can back up if they don't do as asked. I come from a family of big & strong dog owners, (once mature & trained) I ask my dogs once, then I make you do it. I do not accept insubordination or attitude.

But yes there will always be more to this story then we will find out

Exactamoondo!  

Caryll, I dont think "luck" has anything to do with it.

Zac (rottie) didnt like his dad having a new girlfriend. He would go off his nut if she went near his dad. He was 2nd in line & was not allowing her to give him direction without teeth being involved. Thanks to the rottie club here, we learnt how to retrain him to accept a lower rank in the family & be happy with his new situation. It took some time & many tense moments to achieve but it was done.

Boo (french bulldog) that was so badly treated over so many yrs would attack anyone or thing he saw come in the door. He eventually learnt to snuggle up sharing his bed with "Valley" (a kitten).

I don't think luck played apart in either. It was only time, patience, understanding the dog & its issues, how to retrain their beliefs & reactions.

Be you human or beast... you learn what you live!

tracyp wrote:

ella wrote:
they are not a people dog apart from an unbreakable loyalty to their owner and no one else,

Thank you Ella, That's exactly my point! He was their owner. Something else bar "fireworks" happened.

Yes they can live happily as a pet dog BUT they are not a nice fluffy little thing who will tolerate rough handling/training and are not for the faint hearted

Again, yes! If you cant handle the breed, dont get the dog! A responsible person wouldnt get a dog they cannot manage, train or control. I train my dogs far harsher than I would a little "foofy" dog. As I cant pick mine up I MUST have full control of them by voice & signal & they believe I can back up if they don't do as asked. I come from a family of big & strong dog owners, (once mature & trained) I ask my dogs once, then I make you do it. I do not accept insubordination or attitude.

But yes there will always be more to this story then we will find out

Exactamoondo!  

Caryll, I dont think "luck" has anything to do with it.

Zac (rottie) didnt like his dad having a new girlfriend. He would go off his nut if she went near his dad. He was 2nd in line & was not allowing her to give him direction without teeth being involved. Thanks to the rottie club here, we learnt how to retrain him to accept a lower rank in the family & be happy with his new situation. It took some time & many tense moments to achieve but it was done.

Boo (french bulldog) that was so badly treated over so many yrs would attack anyone or thing he saw come in the door. He eventually learnt to snuggle up sharing his bed with "Valley" (a kitten).

I don't think luck played apart in either. It was only time, patience, understanding the dog & its issues, how to retrain their beliefs & reactions.

Be you human or beast... you learn what you live!

This absolutely!

Yes, I do agree.

BUT. I still say Tha not ALL dogs can learn to live peacefully with ALL other creatures. With some dogs, in order for this to happen, you will need to go against his/her natural instincts & that could store up even more trouble.

I do agree that people should choose their dog breeds far more carefully, and that there is more to this story than meets the eye. But you will never convince me that all animals can live in perfect harmony with all other animals, especially in close quarters. Not without 'breaking' the natural & intrinsic instincts of those animals, which is, in my opinion, a bad thing to do as it will (or at least could) lead to frustrations and even worse problems later.

As to anyone who can't get their dog to get along with other dogs/animals being bad trainers/owners, I feel this is an unfair and sweeping statement. Yes, it may well be true of some owners /trainers, but certainly not all.

Caryll wrote:Yes, I do agree.

BUT. I still say Tha not ALL dogs can learn to live peacefully with ALL other creatures. With some dogs, in order for this to happen, you will need to go against his/her natural instincts & that could store up even more trouble.

I do agree that people should choose their dog breeds far more carefully, and that there is more to this story than meets the eye. But you will never convince me that all animals can live in perfect harmony with all other animals, especially in close quarters. Not without 'breaking' the natural & intrinsic instincts of those animals, which is, in my opinion, a bad thing to do as it will (or at least could) lead to frustrations and even worse problems later.

As to anyone who can't get their dog to get along with other dogs/animals being bad trainers/owners, I feel this is an unfair and sweeping statement. Yes, it may well be true of some owners /trainers, but certainly not all.

Well put Caryll.

Dogs are dogs, not angels. They're predators, they sort things out with their teeth. We train them not to bite us but if pushed enough ... your dog will bite you or anyone it perceives as enough of a threat to protect it's own life.

Shisa wrote:

Caryll wrote:Yes, I do agree.

BUT. I still say Tha not ALL dogs can learn to live peacefully with ALL other creatures. With some dogs, in order for this to happen, you will need to go against his/her natural instincts & that could store up even more trouble.

I do agree that people should choose their dog breeds far more carefully, and that there is more to this story than meets the eye. But you will never convince me that all animals can live in perfect harmony with all other animals, especially in close quarters. Not without 'breaking' the natural & intrinsic instincts of those animals, which is, in my opinion, a bad thing to do as it will (or at least could) lead to frustrations and even worse problems later.

As to anyone who can't get their dog to get along with other dogs/animals being bad trainers/owners, I feel this is an unfair and sweeping statement. Yes, it may well be true of some owners /trainers, but certainly not all.

Well put Caryll.

Dogs are dogs, not angels. They're predators, they sort things out with their teeth. We train them not to bite us but if pushed enough ... your dog will bite you or anyone it perceives as enough of a threat to protect it's own life.

Yep this! All dogs WILL bite given the right push, some dogs just don't need pushing anywhere near as far as others before they will bite!