A question on behalf of a friend.

My friends lost their beloved bull terrier "Spok" a couple of months ago. Everyone in the house is missing him terribly. Especially dad. Spok was his 1st dog & he is at the point of sadness, loneliness of... it's a bullie! Don't care the probs, can't hear you. I'll take it.

They found a breeder who is looking to retire a 4yr old bitch. There would be no charge to take her but there would be a contract to pay for her to be spayed before they could take her.

My friend likes the pic of her. He misses his bullie baby Spok. But this bitch is far away & the breeder says her teeth are not good. My friend emailed the breeder asking if he took her, how much would a male pup be aswell. He'd like 2 dogs as Spok was "an only child".

He likes this scenario as he would have a dog to walk the next day with a puppy to bond & raise. But its mum that would be doing the puppy training. She has no problem with that.

Spok was not exposed to many other dogs nor species as he grew up & she realizes her mistake so she said.... if we get a pup... can we hangout with your dogs, chooks, cat & fish?   Cause you can! You bring the pup, wine, cheese & biscuits, I'll provide the animal assortment for socialization an disinfectant for those pesty little accidents.      

Anyway.... i digress yet again.

The breeder replied.... NO! Not a good idea! You should get a pup not genetically connected to her! (Now keep in mind she would be desexed so no chance of inter breeding.) The breeder seemed concerned about a mother & son living day to day together.

Now, why would she say that?

In my experience, bitches are kinder to their own than another unless the bitch has issues! I am also told that if no one wants the dog it will be PTS. Which is also waying heavily on Spok's dad's mind. (That point is killing him.)

My friends are very happy to travel 4hrs to meet the bitch with their kids (teens) in tow to meet her, evaluate her temperament, how she reacts with her current owners, their teens, themselves etc. The breeder would like to confirm the "sale" via email.

My friend rang to ask me my thoughts, I gave them.

After an hour discussion of us both agreeing, her hubbies heart strings still breaking, I suggested I'd post this situation for her to consider what everyone thinks, experiences, thoughts & tell her others opinions.

Any thoughts will be very welcome for her to think about & pose to her hubby.

Thanks guys.

I also wouldn't want mother /son living together. They can get quite snippy with each other when the pup gets older. I think the breeder is being quite responsible.

Would it not be better to let the bitch settle in first & then think about getting a pup?

You are correct. But can't that also happen with an unkown pup? I did suggest taking her for a month, see how it goes, if alls good with the kids, take her & then introduce a pup.

My concerns are multiple...
1.The breeder wants him to commit via email without them even meeting the bitch. This makes me very suspicious!  What is her attitude like towards people & other animals? Is she social? Is she trained! Will she be able to deal with teens? Boo was taken on at face value.. he was not people or dog friendly for yrs...as he got off the plane.

2.If she is not good with her own pups,  what behaviour issues does she have, what wil happen in a year or 3 with a pup in the mix?

3. What sort of breeder gives up a bitch because it's past making good money for them?

4. They need to go see her.

I have so many questions & no answers till they go see her & call me. Evaluate her. Better if dad doesnt go to be honest but, that's just not going to happen! Problem is... if dad sees her... she will come home for his heart, not his mind.

A dog is a life commitment, for good or bad.  Dad is in "I want my dog back mode. Any bullie! Give me Spok back."  
Mum is thinking this through.
Spok was such a lovely puppy. They all miss him so much!

This is soooooooooooooooo difficult.

To be brutally honest, I think your friend needs some more time to come to terms with the loss of Spok, and to reconcile himself to the fact that whatever dog he eventually gets, he/she will not be Spok re-incarnated. To get another dog thinking that he/she will be an instant replacement is courting disappointment at best.

I also share your concerns re the bitch, in any scenario let alone this one.

As he also wanted a male puppy, I honestly think this is the way to go - eventually.

Id not be taking any animal without seeing it. I would not be taking a bitch that has bad teeth at 4yo - what kind of conditions is she in?! Something just not ringing right.

Id stay clear lol

Yeah, I said to her, I think a pup is best for him. But I have a gut feel they will be going to see her. Dad wants his mate back.

Hayley..."somethings just not ringing right" ....those were my EXACT  words to her.

I have spoken to a few friends, mum ( who had dobes) & my sister (a collie breeder) about this. All have said something is off! None agreed with the breeder & all think there is something the breeder is not telling.

If you have the father and a daughter you're usually ok. A mother and a pup is asking for trouble. The mothers instinct is to drive her pups away. Sometimes a mother and daughter duo work out ok.
TBH I wouldn't get any dog from this breeder - adult or pup. Why put down a 4 year old bitch? Why retire a 4 year old bitch? She might have been over bred and the teeth are an indicator of bad health and possibly conditions.
They should not be impulsive about their decision. If they want a new dog do it right and have a lifetime of happiness. Take on this dog and they might just be back in the same boat as with Spok.

That's exactly my questions! I don't actually know but from what I am told, it sounds as if she is kept in a pen for breeding purposes only. Her teeth issue leads me to the same conclusion.

There is no doubt, living with my friends will be a wonderful life.  Couches, dinner, walks, plays, vet as needed. Spok wanted for nothing! The dog would have a wonderful life. But I worry for their children... taking in an unknown quantity.  Mum would train as needed but I have a sneaky suspicion something isn't being told.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
I will check in tomorrow morn before I ring her and read everyones thoughts to her so she can have some more things to consider.

It's hard to turn your back when you feel that maybe you can help or you're in a position to help.
Helping this poor girl is not their responsibility. She has a terrible owner that just wants to discard her for whatever reasons. She's trying to put the responsibility of the dog on your friends shoulders and that's not right. They have to decide what they want in their next dog and find that dog/puppy.
If they want to help this dog, they should accept all the responsibilities and possible outcomes and do it then. In the end it depends on them and what their conscience is going to allow.

When I think of all the poor dogs in the world that need to be saved from humans it makes me so depressed and hateful towards humans.
Can't pop out more babies - well lets just kill you!
Barking to much - well lets just kill you!
Had a bunch of babies - well lets just kill the lot of you!
To expensive - just dump it next to the road!

They are certainly in a position to help & dad can't bear the thought that this bullie may not have a home in the near future.

I think he needs more time before he gets another dog.  He still stands infront of a poster sized pic of spok every morning when he would have been feeding him.

I would like to thank everyone for posting thoughts & opinions for my friends.

I rang her this morning & read everyones posts to her. She is very grateful to everyone for giving her some other topics to think about & discuss with her hubby.

Long story, but.... dad seems to be feeling a new dog or pup will fill the void of spok, which we all know isn't going to happen. I think it's too early for him ti get a dog till he realises that, though he can love another dog, it will never be Spoky!

I suggested to mum, would she like to take Tyson for a day or two? (I give my dogs to no one bar mum or my sister. But these people are the best people I know! They are the only ones I would allow Tyson to stay with.)

While I wouldn't sleep till he came home, I know they would take the very best care of him & I thought it may help dad to come to terms with the fact you can love another, feel the joy of a dog in the house again & realise that no dog is Spok.

That's a nice thought.

They are the most lovely, caring, doggie obsessed family. But its frightening to me to be without my little gremlin for even an afternoon.
But, I would trust these people with him. She knows what a huge offer this is for me. But while I have a heart palpitations, I will know he is in safe hands.
I just hope... IF ? Dads says yes it doesn't make his pain worse. His wife will suggest if they can look after Tyson as we are going up to my sisters & my mum cant take both of them.

Which is complete nonsense, so we will have to park the cars out the back for a couple of days as they only live a 10 min drive away.

I actually can't believe I offered this, but these are wonderful people i trust, admire, respect, & dad is suffering badly right now.

Sounds like it'll probably be a stressful time for you, but that makes the sentiment even more special. And I think, one way or another, it might at least help him to realise whether or not he's ready for another dog.

Well...that's both our thinking & the plan we have concocted.....only time will tell now if he is accepting & I need a heart massage? We will see what his responce is when mum tests the waters & suggests taking him to help us out. I want him to say yes to try to get him out of the ditch he is wallowing in but, I also want him to say no so I don't have to be away from Tyson.

Though I spoke to Con about it & he is quite happy for them to care for Tyson, he will be even worse than I if the dad says yes & Tyson is not here for a day or two!

But, after speaking to the mum.... I don't know what else to try to get dad back to himself? He loved Spok with his heart & soul literally. Spok was by his side constantly. Spok had everything a puppy could dream of. 1st person dad kisses & fussed on was Spok. Wife & kids...in line guys, Spok was 1st to the door!

Dad is blaming himself. Spok was 11. Bad kidneys. His dad got every test he could & monitored them, changed feeding resumes, got supportive beds, monitored everything Spok ate. Spok had nothing missing from his life. His heart gave out in the end.  

Dad keeps asking... what did I miss? Did i do something wrong? What else could I have done for him?
The answer is "nothing"! Spok just got old & his body gave out.

Dad needs to focus on all the fun times they shared as the family is trying to do, but when he sees them laugh at Spok's antics in pics or on video, he gets annoyed with them.
I think this is going to take some time for him.

tracyp wrote:
Long story, but.... dad seems to be feeling a new dog or pup will fill the void of spok, which we all know isn't going to happen.

I disagree there. A new dog or puppy doesn't fill the void the lost one made but it's a great plaster to stop the hurt and make you stop brooding

And after reading the rest I think dad should get himself a new puppy. Maybe mum should buy him a new one ASAP so he doesn't get the damaged goods he's looking at.

Tracy, tell your dad he did nothing wrong.

Spok's parents were obviously not tested for PKD which is fairly common in BTs & is hereditary. He may also have had a bad heart - another common BT ailment.

I honestly think he should leave this bitch well alone, and think about getting a proper rescue or a pup.

Theresa maybe I didn't explain very well.., I think he needs a little more time to accept Spok is not coming back. He really is looking to replace Spok, not just get another dog & that will never happen. He needs to be accepting of a different dog coming into his life. His wife does not think he has that frame of mind at the moment. Any dog will disappoint him at the moment because as we all know, another dog will have a differtent personality.  He is looking for a dog what walks, acts & responds like Spok. That dog does not exist. He has said that any pup or dog will not be allowed to sit on Spok's end of the couch. It could not eat in Spok's dinner place. He really needs to grieve & allow himself time before another little soul runs a muck with his heart.

Caryll, its not "my dad". He passed away quite some yrs ago now. I used "dad" to in fur the father/hubby in my friends house. I think they will wait another month or 6 & I'm hedging my bet on a male pup beginning it's life with them in the future.
I don't know what papers/tests he or his parents came with. I do know they traced this breeder. They owned Spoks grand father apparently.

Spok's owner couldn't have done more for him!  But, he is at the... "what if" stage. Spok had every medical test, blood tests often to monitor his levels, medication, collecting  stools, etc.... he just got old & 11 is pretty darn good for a bullie!

His dad is mourning at the highest level & acting on impulse & not thinking ahead. He is looking for a fix now to make himself feel better. ( that is the wrong reason to get any dog) & what the future brings he is not interested in thinking of at this time.

I do not think he is yet ready to accept another dog of any age at this point. He needs to clear his head. He is a very intelligent, rational, thoughtful man, he is just not in the game right now.

I agree, 11 is a good age! I don't think he did anything wrong. From what you've said, Spok was a very happy, well-cared-for little guy.

Maybe Spok's dad just needs a little time to grieve.

I do feel so sorry for Spok's "Dad". He really hasn't gotten over Spok's demise and is missing him like crazy.

Spok lived to a good age, had a great life and his 'Dad' really shouldn't blame himself (although that is part of the grieving process). A dog's lifespan is never as long as we would like it to be and we let ourselves in for heartbreak when we take on a dog.

Dare I suggest that he sees his doctor about this, as he sounds very depressed?

11yrs is great for a bullie. Spok was a nut job for his dad. Nothing was too good for his little mate! ( not that Spok was that little.)   His dad did everything + more than most would do. There is no doubt about that but he still wonders if there was just "something, one other thing, a different test, food revision?" he could have done for his beloved mate. There wasn't! He did everything!

Lynda, I think you may well be spot on  in all your points! Depression is a real possibility but he is a true Aussie tradie, ( plain freaking stubborn) There is not a hope in hell that he he will go see anyone. He will just deal with it, cause his wife stress & let time pass till he accepts reality. Spok is gone! Given time till a new dog by his wife's orders & when he comes around a pup will come to the house.

Until then....I wait to see if he wants to take Tyson for a day or two or if he has dug his heals in on this bitch. The saga is far from over at this point.

It is a very difficult situation for many complicated reasons.

Oh lord.

This poor bloke is grieving uncontrollably right now and is no condition to make a rational decision. We all know (except him, poor guy) that in seeking to replace Spok in every respect he is doomed to disappointment.

This ex-breeding bitch with the bad teeth is a risky proposition imho, especially if taken sight unseen as the owner seems to be demanding. But who knows? Maybe a completely different dog (opposite sex, maybe different colour) and with problems of her own (including but not exclusively her teeth) may kick-start "Dad" into a different caring role - stranger things have happened. But a replica Spok she is not going to be.

I hope, too, that your very generous offer for him to take Tyson for a day or two doesn't mis-fire in ways you may not have foreseen? If he rejects him (he's not Spok) you can whisk Tyson back. But what if, in Dad's fragile state, he falls in love with Tyson?

I do feel so sad for you all, and could say more in my clumsy way, but will stop for now.

Bless you Tracy in your efforts to help this sad man

I'm always interested in your thoughts Lynda. Say whatever you're thinking, no matter how long the post. I appreciate everyones opinions, there maybe something else I haven't thought about.

There is not much I wouldnt do for this family. They are my dearest friends that would also do anything for me.

He knows Tyson very well. He loves him to bits. There would be no problem from Tyson or my side if he stays there. Rejection is very very unlikely.They would be happy to have him. As I've said, I don't allow anyone to take my dogs but they are the exception to the rule. However, if he did reject Tyson, I could get him within about 15mins. My thought on this is.... if it were to happen, this would also prove to him that he really isnt ready to accept another dog in the house just yet.



I have the same concern, if having Tyson stay makes him miss Spok more & decides he has to take this bitch because he wants a dog NOW. He will not be allowed to take her without going up there first. His wife has made that abundantly clear to him.

I should also say that I made the offer to his wife not him so she can "feel out" his thoughts before or even if (depending on his reactions/responces/mannerisms) at the topic. That will decide if she goes further with having Tyson visit.

It's so difficult isn't it?

I don't envy any of you the decisions that have to be made.